Curse

Shuuda · Feb 05, 2008, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

I'd

Yup, thats why people hate mesmers, they can't play them well, I admit, I can't either, but with the intelligence thing, same goes for Assassins. Funny how the two professions I find to be the best are also the most hated and least wanted, also that they need some intelligence to play as.

I stopped reading there and started loling, The Skill needed to play a Mesmer (and all other core and most none core proffessions for that matter) and the skill needed to play an Assassin are vast amounts of light years apart. Don't you EVER group Mesmers with Assassin in that way.EVER. Simply put, Assassin take no intelligence to play.

But seriously, you must be very ignorant to think that Mesmers and Assassin take the same intelligence level to play.

Lagg · Feb 05, 2008, 09:49 PM // 21:49

In the end, I'm happy Ursan Blessing happened.

It was the final reason for me to move on from what's left of the old days of Guild Wars, long after all my friends have stopped playing.

And I'm also happy for the people who actually enjoy playing the new and improved One-Skill-Fits-All Guild Wars.

Long live Guild Wars 2, where we'll all be noobs in a new world! (except those who have maxed all their titles in the previous game and will shoot laser beams from their heads from the get-go)

Konig Des Todes · Feb 06, 2008, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

And Azazel: Not sure about what you mean in terms of a warrior's effectiveness. Dragon Slash warriors have the best overall and functioning DPS. In terms of utility, you mean?

If you are talking about when I put professions in order of how good they are for PvE, I am talking about is a combination of two things. 1)How well they fair against other professions in a 1v1 idea using only primary skills, I did this with all 10 professions a while back, shortly before EN's release, and it seemed to me that warrior was teh least effective in both killing and staying alive on its own. 2) How effective my idea of their basic purpose is, I'll list the purposes for you:
Assassin: Head to back fast and take out casters
Ritualist: Spike some damage, support through spirits
Mesmers: Spike damage, send/spread conditions
Rangers: Deal moderate damage, send conditions
Monks: Support Party
Dervish: Takes a moderate amount of damage, Deal moderat AoE damage
Paragon: Support Party, Deal moderate damage
Warrior: Deal moderatly high damage, be able to take lots of damage
Necromancer: Spike damage, send/spread conditions, support through minions
Elementalist:Spike AoE damage, be able to take modeate amount of damage

Of course, as I said, different areas and situations change the order of that list.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

In all my years of playing GW I have never seen anything more powerful in PvE than a CoP spike from a group of Mesmers. over 1200 damage in under 2 seconds to all foes in the Area is never a bad thing.

Ignorance must be truly bliss for some people.

I'm not saying Mesmers can clear every area in the game but they can clear quite a bit on their own.

Tell me has there been any other pure profession groups that has cleared the DoA 4 main areas? I might be mistaken but I can only think of one.

The Mesmer...

I'd challenge any other pure primary profession group to claim that right.

Assassins and Paragons can easily clear many areas with only that one profession in the group. In fact, an Assassin and a Mesmer or Necromancer can dual almost every area in Hard Mode. Assassin takes care of non-healers, Mesmer or Necro takes out the healers. Add in a Monk to heal and you got a possibly nearly unbeatable trio. Havn't tried all areas, but I have done a Sin, Mes, Monk trio vanquishing in a few areas before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

I stopped reading there and started loling, The Skill needed to play a Mesmer (and all other core and most none core proffessions for that matter) and the skill needed to play an Assassin are vast amounts of light years apart. Don't you EVER group Mesmers with Assassin in that way.EVER. Simply put, Assassin take no intelligence to play.

But seriously, you must be very ignorant to think that Mesmers and Assassin take the same intelligence level to play.

1) I never said they take the SAME intelligence level. 2) If playing an Assassin takes no intelligence to play, then why are there so few? I think your just one of those people who think "All you have to do to play sin is press 1,2,3". That is not the case and those who do that are usually minion fodder. The only profession that takes "no intelligence to play" is a warrior, unless your going ursan. And I would have to say you are very ignorant to think that Assassins take no intelligence to play and to imply that I ment that mesmers and assassins take the same amount, I will say Mesmers are more complicated then assassins, but assassins are much more complicated then the other professions, whether its a Necro monk paragon elementalist or whatever.
If you want me to list the "intelligence needed to play" then I will.
Mesmer->Assassin->Monk->Necromancer->Ranger->Ritualist->all others.

Also, please don't imply something that I did not state again, ty.

Tyla · Feb 06, 2008, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

1) I never said they take the SAME intelligence level.

Then you probably aren't playing Mesmer.
Assassins take almost no intelligence to play. And i'm talking from experience - Played and Against.

Quote:

2) If playing an Assassin takes no intelligence to play, then why are there so few? I think your just one of those people who think "All you have to do to play sin is press 1,2,3".

Because their effectiveness has withered so much through nerfs - they aren't very viable anymore.

Quote:

That is not the case and those who do that are usually minion fodder. The only profession that takes "no intelligence to play" is a warrior, unless your going ursan.

...What? Warriors take a decent amount of skill to play.

Quote:

And I would have to say you are very ignorant to think that Assassins take no intelligence to play and to imply that I ment that mesmers and assassins take the same amount, I will say Mesmers are more complicated then assassins, but assassins are much more complicated then the other professions, whether its a Necro monk paragon elementalist or whatever.

And I would say you are very ignorant yourself.
You technically were implying that both Assassin and Mesmer take the same amount of skill. You're just denying it.

Quote:

If you want me to list the "intelligence needed to play" then I will.
Mesmer->Assassin->Monk->Necromancer->Ranger->Ritualist->all others.

Assassin doesn't belong in that list.

Quote:

Also, please don't imply something that I did not state again, ty.

Please don't try and worm yourself out of what you said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cab Tastic

And this is bad because??

Sorry?
It's bad because they will think they're actually good because of it.

Konig Des Todes · Feb 06, 2008, 01:36 AM // 01:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Then you probably aren't playing Mesmer.
Assassins take almost no intelligence to play. And i'm talking from experience - Played and Against.

I have already said, that I do not play a mesmer, only reason is because they don't suite my style, only caster I can stand playing *not only caster I am good at playing* is necro.

And as I believe I stated, sins that don't use intelligence while playing end up minion fodder, mainly because of their lower *then war* armor. That is, unless I have been playing an assassin the wrong way, while still being effective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Because their effectiveness has withered so much through nerfs - they aren't very viable anymore.

It seems to me that your looking at a PvP perspective. I rarely play pvp so if that is where you are coming from, I cannot argue against you because all of the common sin builds have been nurfed constantly. However, in PvE, my sin has never been effected that much by nurfs, no matter what build I set up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

...What? Warriors take a decent amount of skill to play.

And as for "Warriors take a decent amount of intellect to play" everything takes a "decent amount of intellect" if you think about it, not just in gw, but everything you do, no intellect, nothing gets done, or at least not correctly. Warriors sem to just put together either PvX builds or a bunch of armor and act as a tank, this is from experience as well as your "sins dont need intelligence" comment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

And I would say you are very ignorant yourself.
You technically were implying that both Assassin and Mesmer take the same amount of skill. You're just denying it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Please don't try and worm yourself out of what you said.

And, once again, I did not say, nor imply, that assassins and mesmer take the same amount of intellect to use properly. What I said was

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

... but with the intelligence thing, same goes for Assassins ... also that they need some intelligence to play as.

Notice how I never said "same amount" or "same as" mesmers? Just "same goes for", meaning that assassins need intellect to play as, and "they need some intelligence to play as", with the exact same meaning.

Funny how one opinion and statement can change the entire topic from using ursanway to "which is better, mesmer or assassin." Its all opinion anyways, and I think I defended myself enough, but if you continue to shoot holes in what I say, will continue to shoot holes in what you say about what I said.

Tyla · Feb 06, 2008, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

I have already said, that I do not play a mesmer, only reason is because they don't suite my style, only caster I can stand playing *not only caster I am good at playing* is necro.

Then your Mesmer comments are nothing but false statements.

Quote:

And as I believe I stated, sins that don't use intelligence while playing end up minion fodder, mainly because of their lower *then war* armor. That is, unless I have been playing an assassin the wrong way, while still being effective.

Sin's still don't require skill to play.
Pop an enchantment on every now and then and watch them refresh over crits while spamming MS/DB or whatever critweapon build you're using.
Sins are incredibly survivable. But they require quite a bit of their bar to be survivable.

Quote:

And as for "Warriors take a decent amount of intellect to play" everything takes a "decent amount of intellect" if you think about it, not just in gw, but everything you do, no intellect, nothing gets done, or at least not correctly. Warriors sem to just put together either PvX builds or a bunch of armor and act as a tank, this is from experience as well as your "sins dont need intelligence" comment.

Heres where the fun starts....'Sins only have few viable skillset options.
And usually its "Assassins get their builds off wiki" argument.
Tanks fail, and Warriors own face. Capiche?

Quote:

And, once again, I did not say, nor imply, that assassins and mesmer take the same amount of intellect to use properly. What I said was
Notice how I never said "same amount" or "same as" mesmers? Just "same goes for", meaning that assassins need intellect to play as, and "they need some intelligence to play as", with the exact same meaning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

If you want me to list the "intelligence needed to play" then I will.
Mesmer->Assassin->Monk->Necromancer->Ranger->Ritualist->all others.

Sorry?

HawkofStorms · Feb 06, 2008, 01:56 AM // 01:56

I always hate people bashing the sin. And mobius/DB. Yeah, PvE sins are easy. PvP, definately not true.
Sins are a lot harder to play CORRECTLY, then people think, especially if you are running your own build and not just using some wikified, stale POS.

Frankly, I thought my mesmer was actually EASIER to play then a sin. A mesmer you just hex and interupt the crud out of the other team's monk and occassionally switch targets to stop other key casts (aegis, etc). It plays no differently then a necro or ele in terms of positioning as a backline caster.

A sin is a weird frontline/backline mix with shadowstepping and in a heated fight has to know a lot about the game to avoid accidentally overextending.

Now, I'll tell you all the same thing I told Mithran on the "universal inscription thread." On a subjective arguement (which class takes more intellegence to play) there is NO such thing as a "right" and a "wrong" opinion. That is why they are OPINIONS. We are allowed to have them.

Tyla · Feb 06, 2008, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

I always hate people bashing the sin. And mobius/DB. Yeah, PvE sins are easy. PvP, definately not true.
Sins are a lot harder to play CORRECTLY, then people think, especially if you are running your own build and not just using some wikified, stale POS.

They still aren't THAT hard.
They are still fun to play though, nevertheless.

Quote:

Frankly, I thought my mesmer was actually EASIER to play then a sin. A mesmer you just hex and interupt the crud out of the other team's monk and occassionally switch targets to stop other key casts (aegis, etc).

A well placed Diversion could gimp even the best of monks.

Quote:

A sin is a weird frontline/backline mix with shadowstepping and in a heated fight has to know a lot about the game to avoid accidentally overextending.

I herd not overextending wuz hard.

Quote:

Now, I'll tell you all the same thing I told Mithran on the "universal inscription thread." On a subjective arguement (which class takes more intellegence to play) there is NO such thing as a "right" and a "wrong" opinion. That is why they are OPINIONS. We are allowed to have them.

Agreed. But an opinion is bound to cause an arguement anyway.

Konig Des Todes · Feb 06, 2008, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Then your Mesmer comments are nothing but false statements.

Although I do not play a mesmer NOW, I have tried it before, as I have tried every profession. So therefore, not false statements in fact, not even real statements, just as your "statements" are not real statements, they are all OPINIONS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Sin's still don't require skill to play.
Pop an enchantment on every now and then and watch them refresh over crits while spamming MS/DB or whatever critweapon build you're using.
Sins are incredibly survivable. But they require quite a bit of their bar to be survivable.

1) only two enchantments refresh with critical hits, critical defenses and critical agility. 2) The point of a sin is to use critical hit builds. 3)Sins are not "incredibly" survivable, a sin equiped with the 2 skills you seemed to have implied *critical defenses and critical agility* and other poor choices can still get spiked to death easily. 3)Every profession requires a bit of their bar to be survivable, and if not, then they rely on the monk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Heres where the fun starts....'Sins only have few viable skillset options.
And usually its "Assassins get their builds off wiki" argument.
Tanks fail, and Warriors own face. Capiche?

Sins only have a few viable skillset options when not chained, however, A sin can use almost any skill and make it "viable" in a build, just as people have constantly attempted in PvP with using the same build even after it got nurfed. Also, for your sin's skills being nurfed, all ten professions' skills get nurfed constantly, not just sin skills.

This has gone so off topic that I don't even remember how it started off the top of my head. Bottom line, as I previously stated, its all opinions!

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

I always hate people bashing the sin. And mobius/DB. Yeah, PvE sins are easy. PvP, definately not true.
Sins are a lot harder to play CORRECTLY, then people think, especially if you are running your own build and not just using some wikified, stale POS.

Frankly, I thought my mesmer was actually EASIER to play then a sin. A mesmer you just hex and interupt the crud out of the other team's monk and occassionally switch targets to stop other key casts (aegis, etc). It plays no differently then a necro or ele in terms of positioning as a backline caster.

A sin is a weird frontline/backline mix with shadowstepping and in a heated fight has to know a lot about the game to avoid accidentally overextending.

Now, I'll tell you all the same thing I told Mithran on the "universal inscription thread." On a subjective arguement (which class takes more intellegence to play) there is NO such thing as a "right" and a "wrong" opinion. That is why they are OPINIONS. We are allowed to have them.

And to back up what I said just before, HawkofStorms proves my point that its opinion. There is no need for you to continue this arguement on a thread that does not deal with it, although, as previously stated, to attack my opinion again, I will defend it. And honestly, you just seem like the type of person who likes to start meaningless arguements. All you had to do to avoid an arguement is say "I disagree, this is why...." after that, it all depends on the person's responce. I suggest trying to state your opinion that way, instead of just attacking the first opinion.

I just noticed how I have yet to attack mesmers in any way, but yet people are attacking my points on assassins. funny...

Sephiroth Istari · Feb 06, 2008, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

If you are talking about when I put professions in order of how good they are for PvE, I am talking about is a combination of two things. 1)How well they fair against other professions in a 1v1 idea using only primary skills, \

One vs. One does absolutely nothing, especially in this scenario.

Death By Ketchup · Feb 06, 2008, 02:32 AM // 02:32

All the classes dont take much skill to play.

Avarre · Feb 06, 2008, 02:43 AM // 02:43

Classes in PvE don't take any more intelligence than any other to play, what on earth are some of you talking about. It's not complicated to put hexes on the right target and maybe Shatter a hex or two. Get rid of your 'MESMERS R SUPER COMPLX' idea of superiority, all it does it make it seem like you don't actually know how to play the class.

Konig Des Todes · Feb 06, 2008, 04:25 AM // 04:25

I think the meaning of my first point regarding mesmers and assassins has been dulled by the idea of "intellect needed." I originally said this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

The main problem is Mesmers require actual intelligence to be on the receiving end for them to be the most effective...

Yup, thats why people hate mesmers, they can't play them well, I admit, I can't either, but with the intelligence thing, same goes for Assassins. Funny how the two professions I find to be the best are also the most hated and least wanted, also that they need some intelligence to play as.

Also, I now think that my words were misunderstood. What I ment is that both mesmers and assassins are disliked and have hard times getting into groups. Also, one reason they are hated is because they have a "unique" playing style compared to other professions similar to it *sins use energ unlike warrior, and unlike both warrior and dervish, they have lower armor(yes dervish max AL is 70, but there are many skills that increase a derv's armor); mesmers have a harder time with energy and health because they need inspiration in order to heal and get energy*

It is because that mesmers and assassins have harder playing styles *at least for me, but yet I am still good with sins so don't criticize that statement please* that people don't want them in pugs, and because of that, along with arcanemacabre's term of "Intelligence" that I used that word, mainly for simplicity and the fact that some people cannot figure out how to play those professions. Not saying only smart people can play mesmers and sins, just saying that they require a different mindset compared to other professions. Because this small opinion has become so trivial, I will no longer be returning to this thread to avoid wanting to respond to attacks on my opinions. So I just request that you don't expect a responce.

garethporlest18 · Feb 06, 2008, 04:48 AM // 04:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Default Name

This argument carries as much weight as a single sheet of toilet paper since PVE isn't competitive. That being said, there are people playing PVE like it is life and death, similar to Latin American soccer fans.... fanatics. At the end of the day, how the other dimmer bulbs play their game is none of your f*&king business.

If you feel so strongly about your e-peen, go buy A-net. But then, do inform everyone so that they can stop buying future products.

I think you were looking at someone else's posts when you responded to mine. As I was talking about people not letting others use different builds but rather those tank+bonder+nuker builds...

maraxusofk · Feb 06, 2008, 05:16 AM // 05:16

LOL @ all these "pve takes skill" posts. just fyi, i h/h 90% of all hard mode missions and finish all dungeons hm non-ursan, so i know pve. all it takes is a bunch of ppl (or urself) to be not retarded and pve is easy.

i hope this thread gets back on track and discusses the inherent advantages of each class in pve instead of the inane "skill" discussions.

Razz Thom · Feb 06, 2008, 05:40 AM // 05:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by maraxusofk

i hope this thread gets back on track and discusses the inherent advantages of each class in pve instead of the inane "skill" discussions.

Someone wasn't reading. This started as an Ursan QQ post and evolved only slightly to include mesmers and recently sins. But the OP was complaining about UB originally.(before 9 pages happened)

The title may be somewhat off center for the actual thread.

HawkofStorms · Feb 06, 2008, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

I herd not overextending wuz hard.

Well, that is an obvious flamebait if I've ever seen one.

But I'm going to defend my position as follows...
It is easy not to overextend as a warrior or dervish. If you see the "tide" of the battle turning and release you are starting to walk too far ahead, you have time to back off.
A sin on the other hand teleports into the enemies midline/backline instantly with a single press of a button, unlike a warrior/dervish who has travel time to the target (and thus also has the time to back off in the same way). A sin has to be aware of the "tide" the battle is GOING to take as they shadowstep. If a sin shadowsteps into the enemies backline right before/as that enemy team is about to surge forward, and fails to disrupt that surge, that sin will be in quite a lurch. Unless he is using AoD, the sin won't have an ability to escape before being spiked down because his shadowstep is recharging.

Dr Strangelove · Feb 06, 2008, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Assassin: Kill shit with daggers
Ritualist: Defensive support/kill shit with splinter/rage
Mesmers: Kill shit with hexes, defensive support
Rangers: Push the daze button at bosses, interrupt stuff
Monks: Red bars go up
Dervish: Kill shit with scythes
Paragon: Spam god mode shouts. Kill shit with spears.
Warrior: Kill shit with swords/axes/hammers.
Necromancer: Abuse soul reaping
Elementalist: Kill shit with AoE, defensive support

Fixed. PvE really isn't complex.

DivineEnvoy · Feb 06, 2008, 06:54 AM // 06:54

After seeing so many misconceptions about Mesmers, guess I can share my view of being a Mesmer.

Mesmers, as a profession, it really isn't that bad as the general population believes. However, with that said, I would admit, Mesmers have a lot of disadvantages in PvE. As we may know, like Rangers, Mesmers can interupt just as well, and with an addition to penalize foes with hexes. In Hard Mode, as we may know, mobs' casting speed is increased from 33% to 50%, and so, is it still possible for Mesmers to interupt foes under such condition? The answer is yes, but chances are, despite the skill a person has with Mesmers, low when it is compared to Rangers. Consequently, why would anyone bring a Mesmer, knowing that interupts may not always apply, when you could just bring a Broadhead Arrow Ranger and get it done easily? My point is, Mesmers aren't totally unfunctional in PvE, but there are always better alternatives.

With this said, I guess people would point out the usefulness of Empathy and Backfire. Let us first consider Backfire, as someone has already point out that it is possible to negate enemy monks' healings, but the problem is, throughout many areas of Guild Wars, these monks would have abilities to remove this hex. Even so, the objective of taking down monks is not just negating their healings, but instead, we want to overcome their healing and damage them, eventually killing them. In saying this, wouldn't an Elementalist be better for the job?

Of course, there are still Inspiration and Illusion spells, which can e-drain and degen our enemies. Now then, the problem with e-drain spells is that foes in Hard Mode have infinite amount of energy, and e-drain seems more or less a waste of a party slot. Now with degen, I guess this is probably one of the best parts about being a Mesmer, we can ignore people's armor and inflict them with cancer. And once again, by the time Mesmers have hexed the foes to the point of maximum degeneration, it is believed that Elementalists would have the foes dead by then, and it isn't totally false.

Another point I have seen made in this thread is about Cry of Pain spike. One of the flaws I see to this build is that the group seems to heavily depended on just mere one skill. What if the enemy foes did not stay in one spot, and what if the spike itself was somehow interupted and decreased in its efficiency? Will these Mesmers really be strong enough to stand against foes in Hard Mode? Of course, we are talking about 6 Mesmers and 2 Monks here, which are all spell casters.

With all these said, I'm not claiming that Mesmers are totally useless in comparison to other professions, but I'm merely pointing out how it is possible to use Mesmers in PvE, but there are always better alternative options. The truth is, Mesmers aren't built in inproperly, but Hard Mode was built to the extent where Mesmers are always not as useful compared to other professions. If anyone knows any effective builds for Mesmers that can match the efficiency of Searing Heat Elementalists, let me know, but until then, I'm going to stick with Ursan. And if anyone is going to continue saying how just because I'm running Ursan, I have deceived the purpose of being a Mesmer. Please, spare me your politics speeches; I ran a FC nuker for 2 years after I bought the game back in 2004 just so I can join PuG's, and the only reasons I actually used Mesmer skills were the fact I needed to kill an Elementalist boss in Cantha and degening Kuunavang. Consequently, if you haven't suffered much from the discrimination, you really can't express what many of us have gone through, and with all these points I see people make as if they know about these sufferings, I find it rather hypocrite.

Shuuda · Feb 06, 2008, 07:44 AM // 07:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Classes in PvE don't take any more intelligence than any other to play, what on earth are some of you talking about. It's not complicated to put hexes on the right target and maybe Shatter a hex or two. Get rid of your 'MESMERS R SUPER COMPLX' idea of superiority, all it does it make it seem like you don't actually know how to play the class.

I never said Mesmers are super complex, but to suggest that they and assassins are on the same level, is pure stupidity.

And, you clearly never played in GvG if you think it's that simple. Monk are not complex in anyway, just press a few buttons for Prots and a big red bar pusher when in danger, nor a Warrior, just hit stuff, then use attack skills, so simple is it not?

Core Proffessions > Non core proffessions > Assassins

That pretty much sums up the skill levels needed to play stuff.

Quote:

With this said, I guess people would point out the usefulness of Empathy and Backfire. Let us first consider Backfire, as someone has already point out that it is possible to negate enemy monks' healings, but the problem is, throughout many areas of Guild Wars, these monks would have abilities to remove this hex. Even so, the objective of taking down monks is not just negating their healings, but instead, we want to overcome their healing and damage them, eventually killing them. In saying this, wouldn't an Elementalist be better for the job?

Backfire and Empathy good, brain hurts. None of them two skills actually do any form of Shutdown, hence they are useless on a Mesmer IMO.